Tories want to raise Taxes
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One more reason I am not voting Tory. I hope this convinces all Libertarian conservatives who are fiscally conservative, but socially progressive that the current Conservatives are neither.
One more reason I am not voting Tory. I hope this convinces all Libertarian conservatives who are fiscally conservative, but socially progressive that the current Conservatives are neither.
posted by Monkey Loves to Fight at 9:22 PM
16 Comments:
I love it when folks like you draw attention to the CPC platform, and the issue of cutting taxes.
Of course, the CPC has different tax cuts, and in the case of the GST, one that we'll be able to see, and not be conveniently shuffled away shortly after the election.
There are certain inescapable truths facing the Libs about taxes: Nobody, and I mean nobody, in this country has looked at their paystub and said to themselves "hey I got a tax cut". All I've ever noticed is how I keep having to throw a sizable portion of each check at the government.
That ain't gonna happen with the GST cut. You know that. And when the CPC wins, and they do cut it, what do you think will happen? It will be noticed. By everybody. Immediatly. And folks will say: "Steven Harper keeps his promises."
And, while the rest of the country will be enjoying the first noticable tax cut of our generation, you and your fellow Liberal supporters will be crying the blues at Harper's success.
Cheerio my good man
Actually as someone who majored in economics in university and I think almost all other economists would agree, an income tax cut is more effective than a GST cut. A GST cut maybe popular, but it is not the best solution. Even the normally right leaning Fraser Institute said this was a bad idea. I am not against a GST cut, but when one has to chose between a GST Cut and an income tax cut, I would prefer an income tax cut as you have to spend to notice a GST cut, but if you wish to save or invest, you get nothing from a GST cut. The point I was making here is the party that supposedly stands for lower taxes plans to raise them in one area is another reason why people who are fiscally conservative, but socially liberal should forget about going Conservative.
Miles,
The CPC will also have an income tax cut.
But most importantly, the Liberals have zero credibility when it comes to tax cutting promises.
You can't compare the two, because one is a real platform that will be followed through on (CPC's) and the other is a reactionary ploy coming after nearly two years in office and just before an election, that would never see the light of day (like the Liberal's ELIMINATION OF THE GST promise).
I for one, do not trust the Tories to keep their promise anymore than the Liberals. If anything I trust them less considering he many issues Stephen Harper has fip-flopped on since the time he was NCC president and Canadian Alliance leader versus now. He is only moderating so he can win the election, I don't think his views have changed that much, at least not as much as he has changed his official policies. As for Income tax cuts, if they wish to rollback the Liberal ones, the only possible alternative I could see is them cutting income taxes only for higher brackets while raising them for lower brackets, I guess they are still following Day's dumb idea of a Flat Tax.
I think what they are saying is that they don't want to keep the Liberal proposal. First of all, can you blame them? Do you think they want to look like they support the Liberal plan? Politically, that wouldn't look good at all. The fact is that, first of all, the Conservatives will let people keep the rebates they got under the Liberal plan before scrapping that and going to their plan.
With all the announcements regarding tax cuts on the part of the Tories, I believe they do have a better plan. The unfortunate thing about Liberal tax cuts is, while they have existed, they have been so small, taxpayers haven't really felt a change. I presume this might be the case here. I could be wrong, but I do believe the Conservatives are looking to put give these people a tax cuts that will actually make a difference. But that's my opinion, and I am certain you will disagree.
Huh?
A flat tax would be regressive to be sure. But why would it be economically dumb?
As a Poli Sci major, I'm not as well versed on economics as you are, but I thought the problem with progressive income taxation is that it discourages people to climb the income scale, and increase productivity in the process.
Oh and didn't you vote Alliance in 2000? I remember you telling me that anyway.
BTW, if you think the Libs are fiscally conservative, ask Michael Campbell to give you a litany of examples of Liberal waste and corporate welfare for the well connected (can you say "Bombardier")
I'd love to here a pro free-market econ major like yourself explain how corporate subsidies are a good thing.
And the Liberal childcare plan alone could prove to be a financial disaster.
You've been playing the "I have an economics degree, tremble before my mighty power" card a lot these days. It's very belittling you know.
Mr. Harper has a Masters in Economics, so shouldn't you automatically tremble before his fiscal policies?
Harper does have a Masters in economics and quite frankly I am not too worried about his economic policies. I think he probably knows his GST Cut is a dumb idea, but is only doing it to win over votes and to differentiate himself from the Liberals. What scares my about Harper is his social policies on view on the type of federation we should have. This part is all about values and has nothing to do with economics. Besides Paul Martin has real private sector experience, something Stephen Harper has little of so while an economic degree is very useful, having actual private sector experience also helps a lot.
Whoa, hold on:
You've accused Harper of being socially far-right extremist Bush-loving etc etc etc, but he needs to propose a cut to the GST to differentiate himself from the Liberals?
The fact that Harper's party hasn't made four rather grave insults to the Chinese Canadian community in the last eight months is certainly enough of a distinction for me.
And almost all but one of my Chinese-Canadian friends.
Hey, check out the left wing's reaction to Saint Paul's comme ts on Mike Harris Conservatives.
Turns out - there's a plethora of Mike Harris Liberals:
http://www.rabble.ca/politics.shtml?x=45518
If you are an NDP supporter - see what strategically voting Liberal will get you.
Jarett - Harper has in the past advocated very right wing social policies. He advocated them, so he needs to come clear whether he still supports them or not. It is unfortunate the Liberals haven't put him on the spot for this. If he is going to become prime-minister, I at least want to know that this is what Canadians actually voted for, not that they simply wanted to throw out the Liberals and didn't realize what the alternative meant. I agree the head tax and insults on the Chinese community were dumb on the Liberals. Still of the Chinese I know, every one of them are voting Liberal federally. Last provincial election, I worked on the Burnaby North campaign for Richard Lee and all the Chinese supporters we had were federal Liberals. In fact one of the guys in the Liberal ads, Peter Yung, was the campaign coordinator for Richard Lee. So if those who are right-leaning aren't going Tory, then I don't think their support amongst the Chinese is as large as some think. A lot of Chinese still remember Trudeau's pro-immigration policies and have voted Liberal every election since primarily for that reason.
Anonymous - I myself happen to be a Liberal who likes Mike Harris. This can easily be explained. Mike Harris is quite unpopular amongst many Ontarioans and on economic issues he was clearly to the right of anything the Liberals advocate so going after Mike Harris will appeal to the centre-left and centrist voters. The reason he has Mike Harris supporters in his party as they are all former Progressive Conservatives like myself who quit the party since they couldn't stand the far right Canadian Alliance. Had the two parties not merged, I can assure you their wouldn't have been Harris supporters running under the Liberal banner. With the disappearance of the Progressive Conservatives, many people have been without a political home, but thankfully the Liberals have widened the tent to include former PCs, without alienating any of their left of centre voters.
Myrddin Wyllt - the Liberals are not a socialist party, that is the NDP. The Liberals are a centrist party, while the NDP is too far to the left and the Conservatives too far to the right. I am well aware of both leader's pasts and I am not comfortable with Stephen Harper becoming prime-minister. And yes if you compare to the positions he took as NCC President and Canadian Alliance leader to right now, he has flip flopped on a lot of issues. He may not be a fanatic, but he is definitely too right wing for me to ever consider voting him.
Miles,
Nice non-sequitur.
I also like how you're consistently unable to even spell my name correctly, whereas you can get a Welsh name like "Myrddin Wyllt" on the first go.
Oh, and the Liberals are socialists. As are the Conservatives. Sorry, but attaching a condition relative to the political landscape based on an arbitrary centre is ridiculous.
Jarrett - No the Liberals are not socialists, the NDP are. Socialism doesn't mean maintaining the size of government, it means making it larger and having a largely planned economy. While still have a free market economy, just with heavy regulation, but not a planned one and this can be indicative planning such as exists in France, not just central planning as in the Soviet Union. And yes I base the centre on the political landscape. By Swedish standards, the NDP would be centre-left, Liberals centre-right and Tories far right, but by American standards, the Conservatives would be centrists, the Liberals left, and NDP far-left, so yes I base the centre on the political landscape, not an absolute.
BC Tory - I think saying you oppose an idea simply because it is a Liberal one and you can do better is really bad politics. I believe and I think many others do that you keep the policies you like of other parties, while drop the ones you don't like. Besides the Income tax cut as shown on the Liberal fact check would save more for the average family. The minimum exemption will go up by $500 so this will positively effect everyone in that category.
Brandon - I was thinking of going Alliance in 2000 and I was undecided right up until I got into the polling station. I did though go PC, but what I did was mark whichever party my pen landed on. Besides I was only 19 then and I wasn't nearly as well versed in politics as I am today. There is no way in Hell I would have gone Alliance knowing what I do know. Besides in 1997 we had a mock vote at my school and I voted PC, while in 1996 I would Liberal provincially.
As for the Flat Tax, some economists like those at the Fraser Institute argue it works well, but it is actually questionable how well it works. Poor people have a higher Marginal propensity to consumer so gains from giving the poor tax cuts are larger than giving the rich tax cuts. A flat tax is in theory leads to fewer economic distortions, but they go on the assumption that there are only three levels of income, wealthy, middle class, and poor. If you actually take the statiscal data and plug it into the formula it fails since people don't fall nicely into any one group and the gap between the poor and rich is a lot larger than their models make it. Where Progressive Taxes are problematic is if the tax rate is completely re-set every time you move up a bracket, so people have incentives to stay below a certain bracket. Instead if the next bracket begins at $60,000 and you make $61,000, and the rate is for simplicity 20% under $60,000 while 30% over $60,000, you pay 20% on your first $60,000 and 30% on the next $1,000, not 30% on the whole $61,000, which is when a progressive income tax causes problems.
Michael Campbell is no doubt a Tory, but I am not sure about Gordon Campbell as I know his wife well from elementary school and she struck me as rather liberal. Almost all of his inner circle are federal Liberals. I believe Rick thinks he is a federal Liberal, although they would not know any better than You and I. Also Stephen Owen whoses riding Campbell lived in was pretty sure Campbell was voting for him. Even in my family people vote differently, so one relative going Conservative I don't think means the whole family necessary does. In Atlantic Canada usually the whole family votes the same way, but in BC in fact more often than not family members don't all vote the same way. The Liberals have been at times wasteful, but so have some Conservative parties. Bush is certainly no fiscal conservative, Mike Harris did cut social programs a lot, but I believe increased corporate subsidies and he even did increase funding to health care, it was more welfare that he cut and Ralph Klein has been a pretty big spender in the last five years, although a fiscal conservative early on, much as Martin was.
Corporate Subsidies are not a good thing, but lets remember it is not just the Tories who are against them, even the NDP opposes them, after all wasn't it Stephen Lewis who complained about the corporate welfare bums.
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